Episode 09 – Reunion

It’s been a while! Excited to kick things off again as we (hopefully) start to see the beginning-of-the-end of the COVID pandemic. What a strange and interesting time to be alive.

We speak about covid goblins, our practice, journaling, the climate crisis, effective philanthropy, the real consequences of actions in the modern day world, greenwashing, colonialism / capitalism, brewing green tea properly, the fantastic fungi documentary, psychoactives and microdosing and meditation parallels, Jasmine’s grandma’s mushroom stash and homeopathy.

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(First 40 minutes only – that’s all we get for free from Otter app 🤷‍♂️)

Bill Tribble 0:08
And we’re back. To those of you who asked us for more and asked when the next episode was coming Thank you did encourage us this is a long and rambling conversation but we’ve included most of it here it goes into topics that you might not associate with our podcast – but what is meditation but life?

you know a while ago I was thinking that we should probably if we if we’re going to do any if we’re not going to do anything with the podcast we should at least like have a kind of wrap up like coda to do you know mean 10 series Yeah exactly. But you know that that chat the other day it was like loads of interesting things we can do and and I feel more positive about it because we are coming out of this

Jasmine Che 1:03
lockdown it’s

Bill Tribble 1:04
awful space dreadful terrible time the is a great podcast the blind boy podcast if you come across it and is this wonderful Irish guy who he calls it the Goblin of uncertain times with his wife he didn’t want to mention the pandemic but he just kept on going on about this Goblin which is a nice way to put it really well it seems you know uncertain times have not ended but at least we feel safe now vaccinated and so forth to actually hang out in person a bit which is fantastic because that was kind of the whole impetus for the podcast in the first place as I recall

Jasmine Che 1:51
I don’t remember many of the podcasts were not in person well they weren’t all of them were not in person but

Bill Tribble 2:00
when we first met we were hanging out and no it was it was like on the tube train back from that awake in no relation event that it’s about differently readers will we’ll put a link in the show notes the we were chatting with Liam and we were having a good time to talk and we were like well let’s just record a podcast that’s it was it was in it was because we were enjoying those conversations in person as as I remember it and then and then we carried on because we still had that impetus for me after about huddle Adam to be managed maybe nine months of stuff by that point I was burnt out and I still kind of am on things

Jasmine Che 2:51
yeah I think with work particularly being intense for you at the moment like has been in this new project Yeah, and now everything has switched to zoom as well i think that doesn’t help

Bill Tribble 3:04
Yeah, yeah and work is still like I spent half my week on video calls yeah that’s just the nature of my job so so yeah,

Jasmine Che 3:14
whereas I don’t really mind hopping on if like you know we have a guest who is somewhere else in the world yeah not really a biggie for me

Bill Tribble 3:23
No I’m up for it more now as we discussed because the the goblins receded somewhat and

Jasmine Che 3:33
balance is restored a little

Bill Tribble 3:37
bit I feel a bit more grounded in the in the real world because I no longer have to stay in my home all the time and live in fear of other people in quite the same way or live in fear of you know me giving something you know, I still feel it I got on the bus here. And I’m like, am I wearing a mask? Yeah, I guess wearing a mouth is all people on the bus. I put my mask on because you know it’s for them and then and then there’s all that kind of in the goblins still there because you’re looking around at the people who aren’t wearing masks thinking well, why they don’t worry masks you ourselves. And the Goblin continues. So here we are, is 2020 is slightly better than it was

Jasmine Che 4:24
I mean much better than it was it’s

Bill Tribble 4:26
much better. It’s much better I feel much more grounded in reality. I mean it’s still like ridiculous things happening in this country. For for listeners elsewhere. You might have heard that our glorious leaders have impaled the UK on a mix of xenophobia racism and just pure hubris to to the point where we lost like half the value of our currency and we can we can’t get tattooed anymore. And everything costs more.

Jasmine Che 5:03
It’s slowly happening. Yeah, see how if things change or not?

Bill Tribble 5:08
Yes, yes, we’ll see. It’s gonna be an interesting few years, that’s for sure. Nothing new in the big scheme of things in this place. But um,

Jasmine Che 5:19
and so what about your practice bill? What do you envision for yourself?

Bill Tribble 5:22
practice? What does it even mean these days? I mean, so. So, listeners, we had a little catch up the other day, and I’m very pleased to learn them. Jasmine’s been keeping stuff going, just kept the light, like,

Jasmine Che 5:40
the triple gem.

Bill Tribble 5:43
And I haven’t in many ways, I know, it’s interesting, right? Because there’s times in my life when I’ve managed quite a lot of meditation. But I’ve also not been very balanced in terms of my relationships and getting on with people on a basic level and stuff like that. So in one aspect, I’m like, Well, actually, how much does it matter? Maybe it matters more to have decent relationships. And I have merged that either. But there’s, that’s one side to it. Another side of it is informal practice, which is very important. Very, is it, you know, it feels like a kind of crappy excuse in some ways, but in some ways, I do see that as more important than, or equally important as formal. Because I know I get a lot out of actually sitting down and saying, right, I’m gonna meditate. 30 minutes is just amazing. And every time I do it, I’m like, Wow, that’s so good. Right. And then, suddenly, you have sideswipes. Me and I never do it again. But just taking like, you know, 10 minutes in a hot bath, to not do anything, and just have that experience. And these, these just little things out walking the dog, and sometimes I will just, you know, count my breath, as I walk across a field. And little things like that remind me of, I guess some of the more like, monastic practices that I’ve benefited from where people do that every day, and you know, they’re going to go in fact, word and carry water and all that, and they just do that thing. And there’s, there’s real power in that present living. Yeah, yeah, beyond the intellect. Just actually experiencing life and not not just living in a daydream of your, your thoughts.

Jasmine Che 7:42
I mean, because that’s what dedicated practices really for though, like to, you know, get yourself up to a level where you can be more present in those everyday things. Yeah. And then it, you know, increases the quality of that presence in those things as well. And then our ability to come back to those. So maybe if having informal practice, we are say present 10% of the time with, let’s say, informal practices throughout the day. But then maybe with dedicated practice, it might increase to 30% to 40%. Because of how much more present our baseline level is. Yeah, and then we remember more often checked out less Yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, like a turbo booster. Yeah,

Bill Tribble 8:34
yeah, totally. Totally. And I need to figure out like, how to weave somehow get better what I managed today actually was 20 minutes of journaling, great, which which I find such a powerful practices, it’s, it’s it, you know, it’s not a substitute for meditation, but it’s a parallel thing that some of the times when I felt most grounded in life and most kind of steady, like honour, you know, finding a direction to go, but when I was managing that daily and just really able to make that space and plan and understand, you know, self reflect.

Jasmine Che 9:25
Yeah. I i from the artists way. Yeah. I had been doing the six pages a day for a while and like within a month, I’d finished like an entire books. And

Bill Tribble 9:45
when did you get into the artists way?

Jasmine Che 9:47
A couple months? Well, at least by April. Okay. Okay. I think I might have said so this one has been since the mid July and I’ve just finished it. Why? Has it been mid July? So if I’m doing it properly, yeah. Often it’s one of these books in a month. Yeah. I don’t which I haven’t been for this one is I haven’t even been writing the dates. That’s when you know that the practice ends up. Oh, it’s, as in I, when I’m not practising daily. Yeah, I don’t write the dates properly. Right. That’s how I know. Right? Yeah. I just write the time of time of the day seven in the morning.

Bill Tribble 10:36
As long as you got the year on the cover of the journal, that’s most of it for

Jasmine Che 10:41
me most everyone. Yeah. But I would say roughly, maybe August, so July, August, so maybe a month and a half rather than a month? Yes. Is still okay.

Bill Tribble 10:56
It’s a great book that it was one of the first one of the reasons I got into journaling in the first place. And then it was about five years ago, I read a great article on why. Nice, Jasmine’s recording the pouring of the tea.

Wonderful. I got into another article on, you know why journaling can change your life. And that one suggested a kind of structure to it. format of like, Okay, I’m going to write down things I’m thankful for things, kind of self assess, and where I’m at in my life and plan what I want to do to get to where I want to be and that kind of stuff. And I followed that for a good a good couple of years. And that was that was really useful as well.

Jasmine Che 11:56
So do you like those types of journaling books where they have, you know, three things I’m grateful for, or what I learned, and then what I learned in the day, and then my most important priorities are, and then they have maybe one other thing like, quote, and then they’ll do that daily? Do you like those?

Bill Tribble 12:16
I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t buy one of those, just because I find it annoying. But I, I did follow a template roughly, along those lines for a while. Because I did find it. You know, I mean, it’s it’s one of those scientifically proven things, right? If you do, reflect on things you’re happy about in your life, you get happier. Yeah. And so I found that useful. And why don’t you like those books? Well, it just sets to too rigid a format for it, you know, there’s a set length to each section. And sometimes I didn’t find it useful to dwell in a particular bit too long. So I just had to kind of had, I either have like, in the back of the book, or keep keep a list of the things I want to go into each journal. And then I’ll just refer to that if I’d forgotten. Or I would, for a while I was doing it on a computer or an iPad. And I’d keep a template and just reuse that every time.

Jasmine Che 13:16
Do you think that the links that you would write would be varying? And you prefer?

Bill Tribble 13:21
Yeah, it varies a lot. And some days, it would be like a load of stuff about now on sometimes a lot of playing, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah, I wonder how you found it in your six page thing, by what, what sort of contents coming out.

Jasmine Che 13:39
I like to, I think start with any pressing thoughts that are just there. Like, that’s always hype again. More recently, I’ve been starting with where I am in the space of the world, because I don’t think I recall very well my days, or were placed in situation. But sometimes it’s quite nice as a diary, and would help for placing memories. And so I’ve been doing that, and then I sometimes do a little drawing. I think my most recent drawing was of two croissants. Just to say what I’d ate that day for fun. And then I do lots of creative ideating and then answering questions of like, what’s really important to me, or right now I’m trying to find out what projects I want to undertake. Yeah, and so I do a lot of idea progressions of what that might be. So I do loads of those, even if they go to waste and it’s not a full thing. It’s just nice to explore. And then other things like so one topic that’s really been at the top of my Mind is a safety for women. And kind of going into what are the real sources behind these issues? And how is it possible to help solve such a huge problem, like worldwide? So these are like, I guess, going into big questions like, how do we solve racism? How do you know, all of these like types of huge topics that we as one person might not be able to fix, but I guess I’m trying to consider what would be the most effective course of action if I was to do an intervention? And what would be most needed? But this one, specifically at the moment is for female safety, and then Education for All. Maybe children now and female on how to kind of stop this as a root cause, like problem? Yeah.

Bill Tribble 16:03
Yeah, it’s such a big one. I mean, there’s been so many stories recently in the press of how policemen have been the murderers and rapists and man, it’s. Yeah, it’s a big one. Yeah. It reminds me of another conversation I listened to recently on the con spirituality podcast, shout out to the, the authors of that, what do you call podcast raise. Which is brilliant. Yeah. And they had an episode where they interviewed this young guy whose name I forget, I’ll look it up, who has he’s in his 20s. And he’s written a very poetic book about how he deals with the climate crisis. And in his life, and trying to figure out his future and what he can do, and all the rest. And for him, it was it’s the that the the things that individual can do are inconsequential, in the face of the, the, you know, the changes that we’re already starting to experience. And for him, it’s about policy and government, and, and how so that’s what it makes me think of in that context, like, the institutions that can make the biggest difference. There are, are those I mean, the companies as well, the NGOs, can do something, but they spend most of their time and money fundraising, and paying the salaries of all the people who do the fundraising, and I just don’t see them as is very efficient. But you know, I’m probably wrong, but that’s certainly how he sees it on the climate stuff, because it’s the only way you can actually control the corporation. So of course,

Jasmine Che 18:03
I mean, NGOs, are you they might be putting some interventions across, but, you know, there, there might still be the polluters who are still doing that, and they’re only trying to then fix the issue that’s arising. Yeah, like cleaning the seas, you know, like charities might not or they might be trying to, well, I think the more effective charities would be trying to work with government in order to help them shape policies and stuff. And we have one, for example, animal equality, here is a great charity, animal policy UK, they have been working with the government. Well, what they do is they get investigative, footage of farms, and then they help show that people are not even given to the regulations. And then the government’s can be like, this isn’t right, and then they bring them to court. So I think they are the second most effective animal charity in the world.

Bill Tribble 18:59
I love that. And it’s, it’d be I’d love to, is there a ranking system for how effective charities are in general? Like,

Jasmine Che 19:08
I don’t know if it? I think they are definitely based on you know, where the money does go to, but how we can compare someone getting water to someone getting an operation? Maybe not, but I think that they just base it on who actually gets the money and if it’s going to the pace, they said, Yeah, and maybe some might be impact with live saved. So like, malaria. charities are notoriously very effective because they save lives directly from just nets for very cheap, so low saved, but I think we can go into other qualities of you know, how you can’t really measure education, necessarily. The impact of emotional security or yeah Yeah,

Bill Tribble 20:04
yeah and there’s that fact that we were chatting about the other day that for every dollar in aid that goes to the developing world we take that like $10 in debt payments

Jasmine Che 20:17
yeah and what was the book that you had mentioned?

Bill Tribble 20:20
Jason hickel the divide listeners read it at your peril his brilliant book kind of terrifying it’s an amazing book because it i mean i i i’ve known that that there’s you know this post colonial state we live in is we have this kind of illusion of us being the the charities helping out the developing world but when he outlines basically how a bit like Jared Diamond in guns germs and steel which is also excellent, how the powerful rich countries are rich and powerful because they have stolen from the poorer countries basically in a you know, you there’s, there’s a long, there’s so many stories you can tell about that, like how, you know, India, I think when it first encountered Britain, it had like, a third of the world economy, something like that. And within a few 100 years, it was down to like, 5% or something and Britain, like, got half of it. It was really crazy stuff like that happened in in the last few 100 years. And also, it’s ongoing, it’s never stopped that that story, and the way that we predate basically on poor countries. It’s pretty remarkable. And it changed my perspective on the stories of aid and charity and so forth that we have in the West in the rich countries.

Jasmine Che 22:02
I think I guess a greater discernment then between you know, what is actually helping or things where if they already have organisations there or how is it that we can better help with structures that do actually help? Yeah, so it’s even more effective charity? What does that even

Bill Tribble 22:21
mean? Yeah, because it’s so by the government policy and all the rest? Yeah, because I definitely

Jasmine Che 22:24
probably think that some charities will be doing good work, and not taking anything back. Sorry. Yeah. I mean, so do you have pointers on where to like find that or who what types of charities should maybe be researched into?

Bill Tribble 22:43
I think they’re stuck in equals book. He was Yeah, he has a sort of chapter the last chapter on things you can do things that help but I didn’t finish the book because I was I got through a few chapters I was brought to life and again, it’s still on my shelf. But thank you, Jason, you open my eyes to that stuff one. Yeah.

Jasmine Che 23:14
And I think well you know, when we even think about the SE z, Heart of the Bodhisattva and what it means to even have everyone awakened or to be of help or service What does that even look like as things become more complex in that same way you know, giving charity or giving aid or helping someone else? You know, there’s so many more barriers to what that even looks like now it’s not even necessarily a simple means because you One would think you know, giving charity many people don’t even donate to charities but so for those who do they would otherwise be thinking that they’re doing something good so there’s always these you know, I and it reminds me of in if anyone has watched the good place

Bill Tribble 24:04
which I haven’t yet it’s very good Yes,

Jasmine Che 24:07
it’s a show on Netflix but they have this billboard of like just buying a tomato and you think that maybe buying a tomato from a local farmers market would be good for you. But actually, that tomato was grown by this person but that person in order to have grown it stole from this guy who then took Yeah, it goes like all the way back to a chain so it’s actually a negative effect right. And that’s the kind of comical irony that it one action, we can’t see what the original so anything’s

Bill Tribble 24:52
like that. I mean paper bags and shops. There was a great paper bags in the biodegradable but then the paper bags take Like 10 times as much water to make and if we always were plastic, yeah, really, we all switch to paper bags, we’d have no bloody trees left. And I remember reading an article on that there’s no, there isn’t many examples of stuff like that where it’s like, on the face of it, it’s a good thing. Maybe it’s something better. Maybe we could be making bioplastic bags that degrade? I don’t know. But in that particular story, the paper bag thing, which you’ll find in any posh shop now,

Jasmine Che 25:27
yeah, I thought paper bags were good,

Bill Tribble 25:30
meaty until I read that. And maybe it’s wrong, but it’s hard to figure these things out, right?

Jasmine Che 25:35
I feel like there’s not one source of information, where everything is current, like it’s very difficult to know, is the same with even just the vaccines. There’s loads of misinformation around but we have the government website. And even the government website doesn’t show all the studies that are up to date, where we can look in a really nice format, or that seems to be accessible. No,

Bill Tribble 26:00
it’s a really tough one that

Jasmine Che 26:02
and then people can’t make decisions because they’re, they don’t have the information. But then you know, we’ll read on Guardian this like study, and then that will change our minds. But then someone else might not have read that one. Guardian article.

Bill Tribble 26:15
Yes. Is like the, you know, is coffee good for you question or something like that, right? You, if you just follow the stuff that pops up in the papers, there’s one study after another on a coffee is good for you. And then one cup is bad for you. And you could go on like this forever. It’s very hard to get that kind of volume, and you have to look up the meta analysis, right? That’s why I did recently, Benny, and I’ve decided not to drink coffee, or drink less coffee, just because it’s like, clearly a massive, like, post colonial kind of extraction exercise. Right? It always comes from poor countries. And those people could be doing something better with their time than making coffee for me. But,

Jasmine Che 27:07
but is it? Well, I guess it goes into? Is the trade actually good for them? Is it good for them? I don’t know if it is good for them? Or, you know, what are their working conditions? Yeah. And that goes back to what they be doing anything else would

Bill Tribble 27:23
be there if it wasn’t for colonialists, you know, I mean, would they even, I mean, it just seems that well, you know, the sugar and coffee trades were established by slavers and the people who are still in those countries still doing that are still basically in a system

Jasmine Che 27:44
what because they don’t pay like farmers very much

Bill Tribble 27:48
and and far worse, I mean, that there’s I mean, even like, man, I don’t even want to talk about it. But avocados like apparently, there’s criminal cartels run these like avocado records. Because there’s so much money in it. And it’s again, it’s just a kind of like it’s a form of extraction from those countries, right? Where there’s money to be made. There’s going to be people there specifically in poor countries, I don’t know, it just feels like by and I’m not going to stop drinking coffee and buying avocados. But I feel wary of those things because I know where they come from. And I know that there’s there’s very little way that I can actually find something that really is fair trade. Like I have so little insight into that

Jasmine Che 28:41
I Yeah, and I think that that’s that’s mainly the important issue that standards are improved for these types of countries who we do trade with, right? Because if they were paid being paid, what you might enjoy, like think is reasonable for them. Yeah, then you won’t have a problem. You’d be like that’s okay. Because they want to sell that and we’re just trading our services and otherwise, you know, they wouldn’t be able to continuous it, you know, because trade is not necessarily a bad thing is only if people are treated fairly during the process, touristy farmers even in the UK, I think I think one in five are poor like in poverty, even though they give like government grants and such, but they have to pay farmers to be farmers now. Yeah, so I think anything to do with things which are not going to be services and within trade that are higher, so it’s all about skills and education in general. And until maybe they have there always be some levels of inequality Unless, you know, people are more radical in the sense of there was a There’s a company, it’s a financial services company and the CEO decided to pay every 170 $1,000. I remember Yeah, man. Yeah, yeah. And that distribution or the understanding of being like, Okay, well, I want our company to be like this, it would require just people to say minimum, the lowest of the, like, people working in any field or sector should be this. And that should be enough for them to be able to thrive, even if it’s comparatively not going to be a first world country salary. But not like farmers wouldn’t mind if they could, you know, live happy and, and such. So I think that’s mainly the issue rather than trade

Bill Tribble 30:58
is a tricky one. I mean, it’s probably beyond the scope of this podcast. To figure out, I just, I guess what I’m saying is, I feel really cautious about that narrative of capitalism making things better for poor people. Because it never really has. Its

Jasmine Che 31:28
I think it hasn’t in the past, because it’s just been slavery and stuff like that. I think many people do benefit from having a job.

Bill Tribble 31:38
Okay, okay. Let me reframe it, right. If we go back to, we’re probably getting way off the the awakened by lines. But if you trace it back to the invention of capitalism, it also invented poverty. At the same time, there’s an I’m not saying we can go back to before that time, because we can’t, we’re in a different place now. But when we rich people figured out that they could get even richer by enclosing land and getting people to work on it for them. If just 400 years ago, in Britain, they, they invented poverty. Because before that, people were poor, but they were also self sufficient. And after that, when they enclosed the land and said, okay, you can actually use that for your sheep grazing or whatever anymore. Now, you got to work for me. Then people for the first time, became really poor, and so desperately poor that they had to move off the land into cities and work in factories.

Jasmine Che 32:48
Yeah. I felt like it would have been different say, you say everyone was super fair. Yeah, amazing. Yeah, it wouldn’t have necessarily been that way. And that’s what I’m saying. Like, I feel like if, if people were paid properly for their services, it’s not that there’s an issue of working because working is not necessarily bad. And being paid for your services isn’t necessarily bad. It’s just if you’re not, then that’s when it’s terrible.

Bill Tribble 33:15
Okay. I think, let’s, I forgot to bring it, I’ll bring you the divide to read, because he’s very persuasive on this stuff. And I’m not saying it’d be a great conversation to have perhaps once you’ve read the first few chapters of that, because it is an interesting one. And yeah, like you say, it’s probably it’s probably beyond this podcast, to really figure it out. I mean, I’m with you in many aspects, but I’m also really cautious about it because of because of Jason Heiko, basically. So

Jasmine Che 33:51
I also think of all like, our tax system would have to go like hand in hand with that as well. Yeah, then there would be a distribution back. But that’s why I don’t think that necessary, trade is an issue as of what trade is in itself, right. I think it’s only an issue. If nothing is distributed back or people are not fairly tax, you know, like if they can evade taxes as a thing. Yeah. So like, these are more of the issues than people having jobs.

Bill Tribble 34:23
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. One, two, let’s, let’s have that chat again. Let’s let’s have an episode on Jason heyco. Let’s get Jason Heckle. On if we can, and Yeah, that’d be amazing. Cool. He’s a legend. Yeah, cool. I would like to raise the topic. Since we’re drinking this tea, which has in it, what type of mushroom Reishi Reishi. Mushrooms,

Jasmine Che 34:49
the mushroom of immortality.

Bill Tribble 34:51
Complete pivot here folks. To

Jasmine Che 34:55
Yeah, and by the way, Bill has just said I’ve never known this before, that you should brew your green tea without a top on.

Bill Tribble 35:06
Apparently say you heard it. You heard it from my wife Mamiko who is Japanese folks. There you have it. Yeah, I know this is a real key for you. You’re all in the seats, thinking about green tea does the but

Jasmine Che 35:20
apparently, I think these tips are very helpful.

Bill Tribble 35:23
gets more oxygen or something apparently improves the flavour. And so Reishi mushrooms Reishi? Yes, yes. Not Reiki folks. Reishi do good things for you.

Jasmine Che 35:37
Yeah, so the interesting thing about some mushrooms is that it can help to support our immune system. And Reishi is definitely one of them. So how they actually function, I don’t know the science of it, interacting with our bodies. But there are so many studies. And the really great documentary, fantastic fun guy, which we both recently watched is a nice entry point into mushrooms. And some of their effects, they actually don’t go so much into the health benefits. I think they kind of segue into you know, what different, like, I think the understanding of what mushrooms are, or fungi, and what forms they come in, because it’s not only just mushrooms, and then it goes into some history of fungi, then it goes to a guy who researches it, but not so much is told, actually in the documentary about loads of the health benefits. So that’s actually a bit of a shame. And it’s because I knew those things before.

Bill Tribble 36:52
I hope that there’s a lot more like decent science done on this because it’s fascinating. And I’m really curious, like one of the questions I didn’t hear answered in that documentary is why so why are like mushrooms, fungi? Why are they so active? I mean, I get it about penicillin, right? That this fun guys figured out how to fend off bacteria and viruses as it grows, because it needs to, as it does bacteria probably anyway. That why there’s so many like psychoactive mushrooms and poisonous mushrooms and stuff like that as well. It wasn’t didn’t really go into that. And that’s a good question.

Jasmine Che 37:34
I guess, in an hour and a half. There’s a lot to cover. Yeah, it can only do so much. I think it’s just a nice introduction. And I think they kind of wanted to show the researcher Yeah, yeah, his story into it in order to be a compelling narrative, so that people can maybe just start researching for themselves. But it’s in the same way that we might see different adaptations of why things might be venomous to why they might glow in the dark. And animals and of all sorts. You know, I’m not an anthropologist, but we’d need an anthropologist, on probably

Bill Tribble 38:17
fascinating show anyway,

Jasmine Che 38:19
is really great. And the thing with mushrooms is I don’t know that there’s a supplements now available, people have it in tea form, and continuously brew it. You can also eat it. The interesting thing about like, sometimes they say that mushrooms are a good source of vitamin D, but actually only some of them are if they’ve been grown in certain light conditions. And you’re seeing the supermarket’s a little sticker, which tells you some of them that are high in vitamin D. But otherwise, the majority of them aren’t.

Bill Tribble 38:59
There we go. And you also have an interesting story about your mother, my

Jasmine Che 39:05
grandma. Yeah, she has, like the most expensive mushrooms around the world that she drinks in kind of a strong formulation every day. And she’s had stage four cancer for the past five or even six years now. But she hasn’t died. alastor just mushrooms are keeping her alive as well as the will to we. her grandchild, so also my cousin is quite sick and he’s only a little child, but it’s almost as if she feels like she needs to be there for him so she won’t die like physically. She won’t die.

Bill Tribble 39:50
Wow. Where she based?

Jasmine Che 39:53
She’s in Croydon,

Bill Tribble 39:54
right okay,

Jasmine Che 39:55
so just,

Bill Tribble 39:56
yeah, well yeah, it’s a great story. I mean, yeah, I would love to. I’m gonna I’m gonna dig into this more.

Jasmine Che 40:02
She’s just so inundated with mushrooms like what more people will give her other mushrooms? Yeah, of course, it’s known for like Asian medicine, but she’s just like, “I can’t take any more I have so many mushrooms”. And actually Bill found some Psilocybin in the field.

Bill Tribble 40:20
We are there we are. Yes, it does grow everywhere this time of year. It’s remarkable. Yeah, satisfy me. Well, there’s a story. Yeah, that’s a very interesting one again, like why? I guess maybe it stems back to that thing they mentioned in documentary of how we we basically have a common ancestor, like animals and fungi. were sort of the same genus, like, 3 billion years ago or something. And perhaps that’s what I mean. It’s really interesting, wasn’t it? Why Why? Why is why is anything psychoactive on one angle, but mushrooms in particular? That’s very strange.

Jasmine Che 41:22
Well, it’s funny, because psychoactives only then reacts, you know, for us, it only happens to interact with us in that way. But otherwise for them. This is just how they are.

Bill Tribble 41:37
Yeah, yeah. I mean, who knows, maybe some of this vast coincidence based. It’s odd that I mean, I’ve read that say, in the Psilocybin, the active ingredient. A bit like LSD. it very closely mimics serotonin. I think that was the one. And so hence it’s crazy powerful action from small amounts. Yeah, interesting stuff. I mean, I personally i don’t know if I mentioned this on the podcast before, but when I really got into deep into meditation, I lost all interest in drugs. Because I had equally powerful experiences on retreats as well. I got here on my own steam, you know, and why would I want to bother with? With drugs, especially street drugs, which you’re just basically buying random crap, you’ve got no idea? How am I actually,

Jasmine Che 42:36
I find the interesting thing for people would be like, Okay, say, I don’t really care about I have no idea what it might be, likely that it’s going to have maybe some contaminants, but it’s not going to kill me. People might say, Okay, well, you had to go on a retreat, which was 10 hours a day for 10 days. And that’s a lot of investment. It’s

Bill Tribble 42:56
much harder, you know, especially people just do them as party drugs on a night out.

Jasmine Che 43:01
Yeah. So they might just say, oh, if I can buy it for, for a fiver, you and I can have this spiritual experience.

Bill Tribble 43:08
You know, it’s a very different context for a lot of people, but it’s very interesting to hear about the successes of like psychedelic therapy. It’s very interesting. Also, there was one of the things that came out of the film was how, after these therapy sessions, they measured, I think, like the interconnectedness of the brain, and they found that actually grown more brain matter than a control group, something like that. Very, very interesting.

Jasmine Che 43:37
Yes, that’s really interesting. I guess more science will be uncovered. I have a friend actually who’s a researcher at your UCL long term meditation retreater. And he is great. He, I think the study he is doing at the moment is on taking psychoactive micro dosing or up to a certain amount, but taking them on long term retreats. In combination. So maybe we can have him on the show.

Bill Tribble 44:10
So Tim Leary is brilliant. Yeah, yeah, really interesting. Funny one is my neighbour was into microdosing and she still is but um, I was just, you know, browsing through these articles after watching that film.

Bill Tribble 44:33
And and came across a picture of her in The Guardian.

Bill Tribble 44:43
I didn’t know it was like a 2019 article on micro dosing. Which is fascinating though that there have been studies done on market dosing and it’s very there’s not much evidence yet that it actually does anything much. Because they did one with like a control group and the placebo group had equally positive test taking the real thing so

Jasmine Che 45:13
yeah, and placebo mean might be good enough to see was very powerful. Yeah, no CPR placebos. Almost better to just put everyone in a pretend study group and just give them a sugar pill.

Bill Tribble 45:29
Perhaps that’s that’s why homoeopathy is still going so strong. I mean I’m it’s it’s a very strange thing. That one.

Jasmine Che 45:41
Yeah. I there was, I think maybe a year and a half ago. homoeopathy was struck off as a real science to treat things and it status VR was formally taken off. Yeah.

Bill Tribble 46:00 9:11
Yeah, raised and from what I’ve got it, I mean, as a child, my parents were into stuff like that, and they tried to treat my whooping cough with it. It didn’t really work. Many years later, I came down with a TB related thing when they did the X rays, they like you’ve got old school and new lines there. So he was so freakin bad that my lungs were scarred 30 years later, by this this calf that they were trying to treat with sugar pills. I mean, the few things like that in my childhood. I mean, it’s just, it’s just freaking Whoo. That and it winds me up. So Much that that side of my history because it’s impacted me directly and just in general I just get so wound up by that stuff it’s partly why I’ve enjoyed that can spirituality podcast so much because I mean getting back to meditation like there is so much benefit to be had from it. Like it’s obvious powerful natural thing we all have access to. And people build cults around it and enrich themselves and and predate on people and that’s also just this pretty amazing run on the floor. I feel very lucky that I haven’t been like suckered into one of those things.

(continues …)

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